Honest Money LIVE — Episode 003

Tiffany, is it true that you're going to spill the tea today on Elon?

Bobby, is it true that you're on the run from Texas for creating Texacoin?

And I heard the Obamas are producing Netflix's Sam Beckman Freed series.

What's that about?

Welcome to episode three of Honest Money Live.

I'm Matty Allen, psychologist, ten-year crypto veteran and producer of Honest Money Live.

Tiffany Fong came out to become famous.

She lost her life savings when crypto exchanges were collapsing in twenty twenty two and landing exclusive interviews with Sam Bankman Freed after FTX made history.

In my opinion, Tiffany helped pioneer the new citizen journalism we're seeing with people like Nick Shirley.

Regular people delivering the truth to hundreds of millions of people.

Tiffany, welcome.

Thank you, Matty.

And I would just like to clarify, I am not currently pregnant with Elon's baby or anyone's baby, to my knowledge.

Full denial already, right out of the gate.

Just denied.

No, I didn't.

Oh, my God.

And that's the end of the scripted part we have for this call.

Everything else we're going to make up as we go.

Because I don't remember my lines anymore anyway.

And Bobby Gray, time for your rap sheet here.

All right.

So let's put that Bitcoin coin on the screen here.

You've seen this coin all over the internet.

The big B, the circuit board design.

Bobby designed that. fighting for honest money before most people had ever heard of Bitcoin.

Let me get the screen back here.

That's pretty cool.

He was producing silver coins communities could use as money.

He testified at Ron Paul's last monetary policy hearing and basically called out the Fed for being a bunch of crooks and told them we don't need their permission to create honest money.

He went on to crowdsource roughly a hundred and fifty million dollars to build Texitcoin, his Bitcoin redo, a proof of work blockchain built to be money people actually use.

Welcome, Bobby.

What's up, Matty?

Thanks for having me here.

Wait, it's my show.

Yeah, cool.

So, Tiffany, I guess your section is first when it comes to us asking you about SPF and dishonest money.

I'll ask you your questions and Bobby can jump in whenever he likes.

Can we just make sure?

Before we get too deep into it, that Tiffany and I are just meeting now for the very first time.

We even went as far as like refusing to chat too much before this call started for fear of talking about great things that we'd want to like try to remember how to say the right way again in like five minutes.

So Tiffany, it's very nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you, Bobby, because I just know Maddie from like being somewhat internet friendly.

And I didn't know what to expect with you, Bobby, but I was worried you'd be incredibly awkward and weird.

No, no, no.

Charming, handsome, you know.

Which is a dangerous combination. extremely regularly those those are the words that are typically associated with me although i changed my like nickname on telegram you know sometimes it could be like you know like danger is my middle name but wow today i'll just be charming and handsome You seem slick.

That's how you end up in legal trade.

I was a professional hypnotist before I got into crypto.

That's literally what I did for like three years.

What did you hypnotize people about?

Because I've actually been curious to try getting hypnotized.

Well, first of all, do not look too closely into my eyes.

Oh, yes.

Um, so I did a lot of smoking cessation and, uh, like weight control, like weight loss type of stuff.

That is actually why I was looking into hypnotism because I was a heavy smoker for a very long time.

So did you quit?

I have quit.

Maddie, I think has saw me.

He saw me.

I, I, yesterday I was hitting some company sent me nicotine free vape.

So I've been like smoking.

I've quit nicotine.

I haven't had nicotine in the past.

Like how did you quit?

What did you do to successfully beat the nicotine addiction?

I was looking into hypnotism because I heard that that actually, like, I think in Andrew Kuberman episode was talking about how it actually has like a higher rate of like, I don't know, a full quitting.

It does.

Well, I was in a, I'm in a relationship and my boyfriend has wanted me to quit.

So basically he just forced me to go cold turkey.

Like he, He went through all my purses and went through all my belongings and took all my nicotine and watched me like a hawk for like a week, basically.

Going to the bathroom, he knew I might sneak one in there.

So he'd watch me pee.

So I guess I just was forced to quit.

That's one way to do it.

That's the hard way, just so you know.

No, look, it's the real deal.

And I'm not going to give you like a seminar on how it works.

But what you do is you trick your mind into believing that your addiction to nicotine is all in your head.

And you get there because some people just put cigarettes down and never think about them ever again.

Other people fight it for years and years and years.

And it's like, well, what's the difference between the two?

Somebody makes up their mind at one point in time to just become a nonsmoker.

They get rid of their cigarettes.

They throw away the lighters.

They get rid of the ashtrays.

And then they change their mind.

Yeah.

And so what you do as a hypnotist is you have to bypass this part of your brain that's judging and watching every single thing.

So if I told you, like, two plus two is five, you go, well, that's not true.

Mm-hmm.

So if I told you that nicotine is not in any way physically addictive, you'd be like, oh, OK, I guess it is all in my head.

And if it's all in my head, this magician, this mind magician can just flip the switch and turn it off.

So what you're doing is you're getting somebody to believe something that's not necessarily exactly true.

Now, you can use that for good or you can use it for evil.

You can trick yourself into breaking that addiction to nicotine, which granted nicotine is like one of the most powerful addictions, physical addictions on planet Earth.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you can trick your mind into just letting it go, if you can go three days without nicotine, it's out of your body and you're done forever.

Yes.

So that's the hard part.

And if you can get over that, like with mind over matter kind of thing, then all of a sudden you're a non-smoker.

Yeah.

So it's the real deal.

And that's what I did to support my family for like three years.

Wow.

That's amazing.

That's actually really interesting.

I mean, I take personal interest in this as a former smoker.

So I think that's really, that's awesome.

Look, it's all about sales.

And I was always good at sales.

And I said, well, I like public speaking.

I like helping people.

I'll do these hypnosis seminars.

And we would have people call.

They'd say, when's the hypnotist coming back to town?

I heard this thing about this Mr.

Gray.

And he could take a room full of three hundred people, have them close their eyes.

Their eyes stop working.

He taps them on their forehead and they walk out of the room.

No cigarettes.

Three packs a day down to zero.

Wow. for fifty bucks and it was like some of the most fun i've ever had in my life because i love helping people i love traveling and i raised my family that was like what i did as i transitioned from like a young adult to like a man and then i learned about you know uh honest money and gold and silver and the federal reserve and fiat banking and all that stuff and i said oh this is this is really what i'm going to do so anyway Congratulations on being a non-smoker.

Well, thank you.

And now we know all about your like coming up, but you should like, can you, can you hypnotize people online?

Like you should maybe do one of your hypnotist courses or not courses, but like maybe you should do a session, record it, post it.

You can help people in that.

So there are a lot of ways to do it online.

In fact, I used to make CDs, reinforcement CDs, and I'd say, take this home and fall asleep to it at night.

And it's progressive relaxation.

You close your eyes and you send the feeling of relaxation across your body.

But it's really great stuff.

I mean, the mind is a powerful, powerful thing.

Whether you think you can or you can't, you're absolutely right. and so you know whether it's self-help or financial literacy and wellness or motivation or fears and phobias i mean there's a lot of really great application and it's not hard you can teach yourself to do it you can do something online but the most important part of it is trust And so doing it online is difficult because you don't have the ability to establish rapport.

So like when when people would come out to my seminars, they'd expect like to meet this crazy, wild eyed, old, creepy, like scientist, doctor guy.

And he's going to like have you close your eyes and then he's going to do what?

Like, I'm not letting my guard down.

Yeah.

So they come out and they meet me and I'm just a normal guy.

And, you know, I'm charismatic and handsome and charming and all those things that people like. say about me on the regular.

And so, you know, you start to, you start to establish rapport.

And so people would say, they'd call and they'd say, well, when does the hypnosis start?

I really want to be ready.

When I go to this seminar, I'd say it starts the moment you pick up the phone to call me and find out about this thing.

You're, you're mentally preparing yourself for what's coming next.

And it's all part of this progression that gets people to a place where they reach a goal that they never thought they could accomplish.

Interesting.

How do you even become a hypnotist?

Is there a class or a course for this, or are you just so self-confident that you're like, I am going to be this?

There are, and they're terrible.

I read all the books.

I took the classes.

I did all that stuff.

But really, it was two things.

Number one is I was in Vegas, and I watched a hypnosis comedy show, and they asked for the volunteers to come up.

So my best friend and I were like, let's go.

We're going up on stage.

And he couldn't get knocked out, and they kept me.

So we bought this VHS tape at the end of it, took it home.

He watched it, memorized the words, and then he's knocked me out again.

Then he lines up my brothers and sisters and he knocks them out.

And we're like, there's something here.

We are on to something.

There might be a career here.

And then we found this one guy that was like the like the granddaddy, like they wrote medical journals about this doctor.

And we're like, we have to meet this guy because he's one hundred and seventeen and he's not going to be around much longer.

So we both went and got trained by this guy.

And sure enough, like three weeks later, he died.

And so we got this training that doesn't exist anymore.

But here's the thing.

Here's the most important part.

Have you heard of NLP?

NLP.

What does that stand for?

Tony Robbins stuff.

Neurolinguistic programming.

Okay.

So NLP is the idea that we use our five senses to communicate with the world around us.

We wouldn't know that the world exists if not for what we could see or hear or smell or taste or touch.

Like if you took those things away, we wouldn't know that we were here.

Mm-hmm.

And so we perceive the world using these five senses.

And then we use language to communicate those things that we perceive internally and externally as well.

So we're using words in our brain and pictures and thoughts and smells and all that stuff.

And so think of it like this. hypnosis is a state of mind you can be awake and aware and alert or you can be kind of like asleep hypnosis is somewhere halfway in between we call it a heightened state of subconscious awareness and this is really fun for me you can stop me anytime but I haven't talked about this in like twenty years I think it's interesting like yeah I've taken interest in it so I'm interested yeah So hypnosis, you're just in a state, right?

You're not asleep.

You're not awake.

But we've bypassed that part of your brain that's like questioning whether or not two plus two is five.

When you get there, the tools that we use, that I use, are neuro-linguistic programming tools.

And they're mind-blowing, mind-blowing.

Imagine you had a headache right now.

And I got you in your mind to...

Pretend like you could go inside and look at the epicenter of that.

And you're imagining this thing.

And you can't do it because you don't know what the inside of your brain looks like.

But I start having you give it characteristics.

Give it a color.

Give it a size.

Give it a shape.

Give it a this.

And you create this thing.

Okay, great.

Now, imagine a clock.

OK, and that clock has that same color.

And imagine the hands of that clock are pointing to a number on there that's about how bad your headache is.

It's an eleven right now.

OK, imagine we can turn the hands of the clock counterclockwise until it's a place where it's comfortable.

Your headache's gone.

Mind blowing.

I used to do it as like a bar trick and people were like, what did you do?

Where'd my headache go?

I'm like, look for it.

It's not there.

Fears and phobias.

It's, I could talk about it.

Wow.

It's interesting how easy and like pliable human brains are.

But just the recipient of the hypnosis, they need to be receptive to it and open to it.

Or can you have someone that's very skeptical and have you successfully hypnotized very skeptical people?

You can hypnotize anybody that has the ability to learn.

If they can't learn, they can't be hypnotized.

When you deal with somebody that's really tough, it's like, what do you want to do?

Do you want to prove me wrong?

Do you want to prove that hypnosis is not real?

Do you want to prove that you can be a smoker for the rest of your life?

Or do you want to be successful here today?

So you got to break those barriers down.

And it takes time.

And like I said, it takes trust.

And it's not easily established through... you know, high speed internet connection, but sometimes it is.

Maybe one day you can hypnotize me.

I was going to say we're halfway there already.

We're halfway there.

I'm just going to buy anything you tell me at this point.

Well, here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

When you get to that point where you go, you know, our brains are kind of like malleable.

You can teach them and program them and get them to do things.

Like is anyone else using that against me?

Could the education system or the media – by any chance be using some of these techniques like to their advantage?

Absolutely not.

The government's here to protect us.

The media would never lie to us.

They're the third estate, man.

That's not their job.

They're here to like have a well-informed citizenry.

Right.

And so I went from there and here was the turning point for me.

Not that it matters, but the, the, State of Illinois was going smoke-free.

They were banning cigarettes in all public spaces.

And I said, this is a great time for me to team up with the American Lung Association and start doing free events all over the state, free events.

Come on out for a wellness.

Let's become non-smokers and healthy people together.

I'll bring in sponsors.

And the American Lung Association said, no.

What do you mean no?

The American Medical Association proved that hypnosis, don't call it hypnosis.

Call it a wellness seminar.

Call it a wellness, you know, smoke-free Illinois kickoff.

Like, call it whatever you want.

But let's help people be healthy.

And they said no.

What?

Why?

Why wouldn't you want that?

And that was when I started to wake up.

And I'm like, if that's off, what else could be off?

Oh, wait a minute.

Our money is completely fraudulent?

Oh.

Hmm.

Okay, there's that too then, I guess.

And so that was the transition.

That was the, I'm opening up my mind and I'm beginning to consider all these other possibilities.

And I put two and two together and I go, hey, this is all broken and nobody's doing anything about it.

Nobody even knows about this stuff.

And so that's why I got into Honest Money all those years ago.

Wow.

Well, you know, speaking of Illinois, look at this transition.

Speaking of Illinois, there's a senator from Illinois named Obama, and he actually became president.

You might have heard of him.

I've heard of him.

Netflix's The Altruists tells the FTX story with us as executive producers.

Tiffany, you interviewed Sam Bankman Freed and I've got your tweet up here on the screen.

You called Netflix's trailer effing terrible.

Terrible.

What what did you see that made you say that?

I mean, I do think objectively it looks like it was pretty poorly done.

I don't think I have really interesting, well-formulated thoughts on this.

I do think that, obviously, having met and known Sam, I didn't really think that they captured the vibe of his particular brand of awkwardness.

But obviously, I mean, obviously, a lot of things in my qualms are pretty like standard for it just being a Netflix show, like obviously how traumatized it is.

And like, I feel like they want it to look like like Sam and Caroline are this like romantic Bonnie and Clyde couple when I feel like when Sam has described their relationship was much less interesting and romantic.

It was just sort of like Like he seemed to feel pretty meh.

I mean, at least the way he described to me, you know, he seemed to feel very like meh and uninterested in her.

Caroline seemed to be very infatuated with Sam.

She's like writing him love letters and he's just kind of like, he said that he's like avoidant, you know, like the whole, I don't know if you know, like the whole anxious avoidant, like the sort of dance that happens where she, she apparently is very infatuated with him, very anxiously like attached to him.

And he was pretty avoidant and was like uninterested in like pursuing some sort of traditional relationship.

So wait, wait, wait, wait.

This is Netflix's characterization or this is what your personal perception is?

That's Sam's retelling of what happened between him and Caroline.

I think Netflix's characterization seems very like they just had this like beautiful love story and became Bonnie and Clyde and wanted to like set off to do this crypto thing together, which I don't know.

It just didn't seem like, like, so it just didn't feel accurate to what I've heard.

But also, I mean, not that Sam is the most trustworthy, reliable narrator either.

Who knows?

But I don't know.

It just obviously seemed very, overdramatized into but that's not surprising for a netflix show do you have a cameo in the film or are you gonna you're gonna i don't have a cameo i mean i i saw a few asians in there i'd love for one of them to be me but uh i don't think i have a cameo in the film i'm offended that's actually my main problem with it i'm offended they didn't reach out to me but um yeah yeah i don't know we'll see how it goes when it comes out i'm curious i definitely will watch it Good.

Maddie, what's next on the script?

Well, we're going off script, but Tiffany, what was the deal?

Was Sam in love with you?

What was the media saying that was totally true and factual?

Wait, whose baby is it?

Is it Elon's baby or is it Sam's baby?

There's going to be a baby here somewhere, somewhere between now and nine months.

My love life is, is it Elon or is it Sam Bankman Freed?

Well, there's no baby going on.

As far as I know.

We're willing to take your word for it for now, for now.

For now, I'm not pregnant.

One day I do hope to be pregnant.

But what was the question?

Take us through the connection there.

How did you how did you become part of this story?

What what stroke of luck or hard work was it that got you to this position where you're ready to break a million?

Right.

I would actually probably call it more luck slash maybe maybe actually bad luck, because the way that I got into this is because I don't know if you've heard of Celsius.

I assume if you're in crypto, you've heard of Celsius.

But I left a substantial amount of money in Celsius.

No, it might be nothing.

It was three point one bitcoins, eleven point six ETH, which to me is a substantial amount of money. in celsius network and i remember it like abruptly shutting down withdrawals and me just having like this massive existential crisis like oh my god at that time that was like the majority of my net worth at the time and uh i was going through a breakup i was just going through depression so i was just like really having a bad time and i was looking for outlets creative outlets and one of them being i guess i'm just going to start posting about this on twitter because it looks like other people are also posting about celsius on twitter so i was kind of like looking for community looking for somewhere to vent i posted like a screenshot of my losses I was just kind of shitting, like saying at Alex Mashinsky, like go fuck yourself, you know, that kind of thing.

And it turned into employee, like I just was obsessive, not obsessively, but daily posting updates about what was going on in the bankruptcy and employees inside of Celsius as it was in chapter eleven restructuring or whatever. began, I guess, following me and started to like want to leak me information.

So they would point in secretly.

Yeah, they secretly record Alex Mashinsky in internal all hands meetings and then send them to me for me to share.

So me posting those leaks, I guess, from inside company caught Sam Bankman Freed's attention.

So he started following me.

And this is back when he was still.

Yeah, like back when he was trying to learn from the master.

I know, exactly, exactly.

Let me take notes.

But this is like back when he was still the golden boy, FTX hadn't filed for Chapter Eleven yet.

So I was like quite flattered.

I messaged him being like, oh, thank you for the follow, Sam Baikman-Fried.

And he thought what I was posting was interesting.

So I guess he took some liking to my posts leading up to November, November, November, November, Yep, sure.

Here's my phone number.

So he gave me the first interview after FTX filed for Chapter Eleven.

And that kind of set my career in motion, I guess.

So that was like.

Did you lose anything in FTX?

Did you did you get hit twice?

I was dating someone at the time who lost a lot to FTX.

So I guess both of us were like, you know, burned.

Did you ever meet Alex Mashinsky?

I, I did go to a conference for like, this was, he wasn't in jail or prison for a very long time after, after FTA or after Celsius had filed for capital.

And so he was just going to conferences.

Like he was just, he's just the guy.

Yeah.

So I just went to everyone's money still here.

Yeah, I went to a conference and sort of chased him around and was like, hey, Alex, like he had already taken issue.

This was after I'd already leaked his audios, leaked all those like secretly recorded meetings.

Employees had sent me like his transaction histories where he was withdrawing forty million dollars prior to the filing for Chapter Eleven, prior to shutting down withdrawals, stuff like that.

So he like personally did know who I was and dislike me.

So I just came and I was just like kind of like, Alex, hey, yeah, and kind of.

Chased him around a little bit.

It was fun.

So I met him in twenty eighteen at Consensus Berlin.

I think it was Berlin.

Wow.

And he was giving the keynote up on stage.

And I was like, I was just getting into crypto then.

And I was like trying to peddle my cold storage coins.

I got these coins.

You saw a picture of it earlier.

And I'm like really excited about these coins being a bridge for people that don't know anything about crypto to get started.

It's a real simple thing.

You can put a digital asset in someone's physical hand and that's it.

That's done.

I think someone has given me one of those ones.

So maybe.

Oh, we've had them all over.

I've made, I don't know how many millions of them.

But I was there at the conference trying to like, you know, test the water, get some support for him.

And he's up on stage giving the keynote. he goes i have the plan to bring the next hundred million people into crypto and i go oh god please don't say a coin please don't say please i'm in the back of the room and i'm like please and he reaches into his pocket and i'm ready to have a meltdown he goes i've got this coin and i'm like no no We're giving him out for free in the back of the room at the end.

I just forgot to tell you that.

But anyway, it's an app.

It's a lending app.

And I'm like, yes.

Yes, that's exactly what we don't need.

We don't need to have counterparty risk and to trust this guy.

So he comes down and he goes into the VIP lounge and I was in there and I was like, hey, can I see your coin?

He's like, what?

I'm like, you had a coin.

You showed it up on stage.

Can I see it?

So what are you talking about?

I'm like, you had a physical coin.

He's like, I don't think so.

I'm like, you just had it in your pocket. oh yeah this no there's souvenirs we give them away at our booth I'm like well I made a coin too here's mine he's like wait you made this coin I'm like it's mine he's like I want to buy it off you I'll buy it off you right now for a million dollars what and I go well I think it's worth a lot I think it might even be worth more than that but what do you want to do with it he goes I want to sue everyone that's ever used a picture of this coin and didn't pay you a royalty for it.

Oh, I'm like, no, no, that's, that's not, it's an onboarding tool.

It's a community tool to bring more people into crypto, not go out there and like, you know, rake people over the calls for using this powerful, like well-known image.

No, I'm not selling it to you.

So, so around our office for a while, we had this, Alex was wrong.

Like anytime somebody would say something stupid, we'd say Alex was wrong.

Then all of a sudden Celsius got big and we're like, damn, maybe Alex was right.

Then all of a sudden they were bankrupt.

And I'm like, ha, Alex is wrong.

We had it slow and steady wins the race.

So yeah, I got the pleasure of bumping into him back.

And that's a great backstory with Alex.

Well, it's hard for the course.

Like, every once in a while, you meet someone and you're like, this person's just a slime ball.

And you're not wishing slime ball evil on them.

But you are saying, like, I feel like they're a slime ball, but the rest of the world seems to really like this guy.

Maybe I'm a bad judge of character.

I got it all wrong.

Oh, no, no, no.

No, no.

I was right.

That's really funny.

It's always good when the universe delivers on like a good clear expectation.

He wants to sue everybody and he thinks that you lending your money to him.

I don't know.

It doesn't feel good.

Yeah.

Anyway, what's next on the agenda?

Or do we have to keep free balling it here?

Well, all right.

So I guess now is as good a time as any.

Bobby, we're actually going to be giving away physical storage coins to anybody who goes to the website.

How can people claim their prize?

Wait, wait, wait.

We're not out of time yet.

It's not the time.

No, we're not.

But we're just talking about the full storage coins.

We even agreed that we weren't going to do that.

Well, let's talk about the cold storage coins, because like I mentioned, I see them as a bridge between these two worlds.

I was born in nineteen eighty.

What about you?

Are you twenty seven?

I'll take it.

I'm ninety four.

So I'm thirty.

It was one or the other.

It was it was twenty seven or ninety four.

It's tough to tell.

It is tough.

It is very tough.

I lived in Asia for seven years and I could never get it right.

So.

I was born in nineteen eighty.

I grew up with the analog offline, riding my bike around, drinking out of the garden hose kind of like, you know, thing.

I had to go to the library and learn the Dewey Decimal System.

But then at like age fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, we got tech.

And it was very, very tech savvy.

My dad had a computer business.

So I like grew up with a foot in both worlds, the old school world and this new digital thing that we're embracing today.

And so I made these coins because they're a great bridge between those two worlds.

Digital asset, palm of your hand.

You know, physical, tangible, lock up your digital asset and you're safe.

It's a great compromise if you're not ready to, like, figure out what a seed phrase is and get your two factor all set up.

So I made those.

Like I said, I've made millions of them.

We've given away way, way, way a lot of coins.

But if you create an honest money profile, you can figure it out on the website.

We'll send you a free coin.

And cross your fingers.

Hope that I did a reasonably good job of generating the key pair and not saving a copy of your seed or key like the other guys didn't do or did do or whatever.

And use it.

Put a couple bucks on there and dip your toe in the crypto waters.

Right.

Because, Tiffany, you know, this is what Wells Maddy knows that this is an exciting thing.

It's it's You know, money that's given back to the people.

It's decentralized digital peer to peer money.

And this is something that has the ability to have a positive impact on everyone that gets into it.

The earlier you get in, the more potential upside you have.

That's how it was when the dollar came out in nineteen thirteen.

It took twenty years in an executive order. for the Federal Reserve note to catch on.

So I think we're still in the very early days of crypto.

We got a lot to figure out.

We've got bad actors.

We've got scams and hacks and bad code.

Like there's a lot to figure out.

But if we stay the course, we might just be able to take back control of money from the banks and institutions that have ruined it over the last couple hundred years.

That's the opportunity that we have.

And I need people to like get off the couch, dip a toe in the water and be willing to learn more about crypto.

Seems reasonable, right?

I've used the cold storage coin to onboard like over a hundred people into crypto by just handing them some preloaded amount.

And my two most famous people that I onboarded into crypto were Jordan Peterson, Pak Tua.

And so that's really fun.

And I think... the amount of Bitcoin and other cryptos that's kept on cold, cold storage coins.

What is it over a million or something?

It testifies to, you know, how how much people trust you even though crypto is about removing trust.

Well, I'm still alive today.

I'm still alive.

I can give myself that so far.

And I think that was what you said the first time we met personally.

You're like, well, you probably did a pretty good job because you're still walking around at these conferences.

And, you know, about that, like it's hard to tell the difference between bad actors and bad intent.

And, you know, I've seen it both ways.

I've seen people make stupid mistakes and disappear fortunes.

I've seen people, you know, make really bad decisions with risk and trust and disappear fortunes.

And so, you know, we had that cold card hack.

Are you in the loop on that one, Tiffany?

Yeah.

Who had a car accident?

So this company had some sort of bug or something.

It was on Twitter about a month or two ago.

So AI went through some old code and figured out that they didn't use a really good entropy seed phrase generation strategy.

And so they started guessing seed phrases.

And it's like an impossible thing unless you made a mistake and something like a hundred million dollars of crypto.

Well, was that by design?

Did somebody do that on purpose or did somebody make a mistake?

And the knee jerk reaction to all that is we need to go back to exchanges.

We need to take it all off of our cold storage devices and put it back on Coinbase and Kraken and Binance and BitMart.

And oh, wait a minute.

Didn't BitMart just shut down? a couple months ago and disappear how many hundreds of millions of money hundreds of you know thousands of our personal money yeah and so it's like man when we go centralized when we trust somebody else we're in a tough position as well so I don't know if it's better to you know bet on yourself and take the risk or it's better to trust and exchange I've seen it go bad both ways but We have an opportunity here to define the future of money and how we exchange value.

And that's crypto.

And it's dangerous and it's confusing.

And those cold storage coins can make it a little bit easier, a little bit more palatable for somebody.

And I'd like them to go get one for free at honest.money.

Yeah, I think that's great.

I think that someone gave me a coin.

Maybe it was one of your coins when I was like before I was really in crypto.

And I feel like that was my first introduction, too.

So I think it's great.

People like we put them down on the tables at these conferences and people pick them up and they look at it.

And then they would have like one of two reactions, like grab all of them.

These are great.

I'm going to sell them on eBay.

They're like, no, I would never trust this.

Some random wallet on a table at a conference.

Nice try.

True.

Like, like shame on me.

If I trusted that somebody is obviously tempered with it.

And it's like, how do you ever know?

But, but like, you gotta trust somebody.

Yeah. in this space when you're talking about decentralized peer-to-peer it's all we got we don't have a gun to force anyone to comply we just have to like feel people out talk to people ask questions do some due diligence and then make the best decisions that we can and it's a dangerous scary risky thing because how do you ever know how do you ever know you hear that all the you know talking heads are saying this guy is good he's trustworthy and then And then it's gone.

Is that the best disaster that you've seen in your career?

Are there any other great horror stories that you've come across?

You mean crypto wise?

Yeah, I guess.

I mean, I mean, I feel like FTX was probably the biggest.

Is there a bigger crypto like fallout than FTX?

I guess there were like, you know, like not in terms of monetary value.

The Mt.

Gox Magic the Gathering online exchange lost more Bitcoin, but it wasn't worth as much at the time.

Yeah, but that's the funny part, right?

That's worth more now than it was back then.

And so that guy might emerge as a billionaire after all the bankruptcy dust settles.

No, I don't know.

I think that FTX was definitely the biggest and most recent one.

Do we have a value on the BitMart thing yet?

Has anyone put a number on that?

I haven't been following BitMart.

I don't think so.

That was our big exchange.

It was like all these exchanges.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

When you start your own crypto, you know, you're in this race to get on exchanges.

Okay.

Well, where do you start?

Well, a number like eighty seven, you know, fraud exchange, steal your money dot com.

All right.

This is not going to end well, but at least we have an exchange.

Yeah.

And so you start working your way up the ranks and you need at least three exchanges for CoinMarketCap to start listing your coin as like a real thing, not verified, but you need data from three exchanges.

Okay, so we're working our way up the ranks.

Then we get on a BitMart and all these exchanges, they have rules.

You have to have this much liquidity at two percent, this much at one percent, this many buy orders, this many sell orders.

And we're like, well, that doesn't really work for us because we're a mineable coin.

We're like Bitcoin.

We're like Litecoin.

So we can't tell the miners that they have to sell it at a particular amount.

The market decides that.

So how could we comply with the exchange rules when we don't control the tokens?

So all these exchange rules are built for people that... min up a trillion tokens and then pump and sell and you know that kind of thing anyway we got on bitmart but bitmart's like we see what you're doing we'll relax the rules for you guys do let your market be open and fair great that's exactly what we need uh and then they're gone wow they're like they go down About a couple of months ago, we sent a message out and this is my exact words to the business development guy today.

Earlier today, my man that signed us up over there.

Great guy.

I like him.

I said, what a coward.

I said, the guy that shut it down, I don't remember his name.

But when they shut down, they said, you know, a lot of regulation.

We're just going to do an orderly wind down.

No problem.

OK, so go in, click on the withdrawal, put two factor in and then I get my money.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, we're just kidding about the orderly wind down so we can avoid like all the hate that comes.

And so here we are months later.

And the message today from them was, OK, It seems that Sheldon might return some assets by the end of this year.

And so let's NLP that sentence real quick.

You ready for an NLP lessons?

These are what we call... like a phrase or words of possibility, modalities, right?

And so it seems, not very clear, it is, it isn't, or it seems, so that's number one, that Sheldon might, he might, it seems that he might, okay?

We're not very clear right now, return some, some assets, This is number three.

We have one sentence here.

We have three things that have just told us that we're still going to be fucked, right?

So hold on.

What's the next part?

It keeps going.

By the end of this year, right?

So at some time in the future, we might give you something.

So NLP, what it teaches us is that in this dance of communication, it's like my job to make sure that I'm throwing something that you're catching.

Right.

It's like we've got to be on the same page.

If I give you these, you know, these vague, open ended statements that convey absolutely nothing.

Right. what are you going to do?

You reassemble that in your brain and what do you come up with?

Oh, okay.

That sounds good.

What did you say?

So the idea of language and communication is to find some clarity.

Give me a straight answer.

And so my response to him was like, what a coward.

Do you find this guy?

We went from orderly shutdown to seams and might and some end of the year.

Just be a man and tell the world you fucked up.

And he had the total loss amount.

Is it in the billions?

Do they have any idea what the total loss amount is?

They didn't say.

What was it?

Was it a hack?

Well, it might be.

Interesting.

That was a real setback for us.

We're like, we finally got CoinMarketCap verified.

It wasn't cheap or easy.

And now all of a sudden CoinMarketCap's like, all right, I'll verify your information.

Now it's game time.

Now we're really able to claw our way up the ranks.

We would have been on page two last September.

Okay, we go through our first cycle, ups and downs.

We're learning. now all of a sudden we're coin market cap verified we're clawing our way up and then bitmart's gone and i'm like oh my god what do you do now where do you go next like what's like we can't give up we can't just like throw in the town be like well it was fun while it lasted yeah So my message to everybody is we got to take it on the chin and we got to keep going.

Like we're doing something that might just save the world.

And it sounds absolutely insane.

I know, but like, and I'm not talking about Texacoin.

Texacoin is my version of this, but I'm talking about honest money.

I'm talking about the idea that, That they've eroded our savings through inflation over the last hundred and thirteen years.

And it's not an accident.

They know what's happening and they're doing it on purpose.

They like pretend like it's some other guy's fault.

That's the last administration.

It's all Hillary's fault.

I'm like that.

I'm like, this has been going on for a long time.

You guys have been asleep at the wheel.

And now all of a sudden young people.

Don't think that they're going to do better than their parents.

Think that the world is going to end by like twenty thirty five unless your baby daddy gets us all on a starship to Mars.

Like and that's not true.

So everybody knows this is an ongoing joke.

It's all fun.

I don't mind.

It's fine.

So that's where we are today.

And we're trying to get people to be excited about the future again.

The future is bright as long as the future is honest.

And so now we got a new level of this AI fake news.

Everything is like, you know, you click, click, click, and you've got some feature length film.

It's like, man, it was tough before.

Now it's almost impossible.

We just want to be a little blip on the radar of the idea of peace and prosperity still having an existence.

I thought that Texas was going to be the place to do it.

Texas disagreed, which is why, as you said, I am a fugitive on the run.

You're on the run.

You're on the, yeah, I want to, I need to hear and understand more about what exactly is happening with your, with your case.

Well, let me, let me give you some backstory first.

I left the U.S. in twenty thirteen because I went through a very, very terrible lawsuit and a bankruptcy.

And I was like, make America great again before there was a hat and like it was a cool thing to say.

I was trying to build a factory and everyone's like, what are you doing, man?

Go to Asia.

That's where factories are built.

Like you don't build a factory in the U S anymore.

Nobody does that.

I'm like, I'm going to have a factory in Dallas, Texas, making coins.

We're going to mint the future of money right there in Dallas, Texas.

Well, that was a bad idea.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Bad idea.

And so I went through I should have.

And then I almost did so.

So I went through a really spectacular bankruptcy and left.

I bought a one way ticket November twenty fourth, twenty thirteen.

And I said, I'm never coming back.

And I remember getting onto the jet way and just looking back and saying, that's it, that's it.

I did my part, I tried and it didn't work.

And I learned some valuable lessons and it was painful, but I'm gonna go build my life over in Asia. which is where everybody else is building.

There's a saying that's like, if you were alive in the seventeen hundreds and you wanted to be in the center of it all, you'd be in Paris.

And if you were alive in the eighteen hundreds and you wanted to be in the center, you'd be in London and then New York.

And now if you wanted to be in the center of it all, you'd be in Asia, you know, whether it's Shanghai or Singapore or Hong Kong, like take your pick.

But that's where people are building.

And so I went over there to be a part of that, to like let my creative juices.

Anyway, so so I did very well and I came back.

And if it wasn't for COVID, I would have never come back.

And I came back and I built another factory in Texas and I sold that.

And then I got into crypto.

And so I didn't want to do it.

But I said, you know what?

I got one more project in me.

And I was listening to a Rogan episode and somebody said, text it.

And I'm like, wow, what a great idea.

I should make a coin to commemorate that, which is what I do.

But I'm going to do digital coins this time.

No more gold and silver, copper.

I'm done going digital anyway.

So I started that.

And when I started, it was kind of like a fun idea and a hobby.

And then I was like, this can really work because, you know, crypto's lost its way.

Number one.

Number two is like a thousand new scammy two coins a day come into existence.

But like who's running those things?

I actually happen to know a thing or two about money and economics.

I testified in U.S.

Congress, you know, like twelve years ago, fourteen years now, created the original Bitcoin coin, been doing this for.

So maybe I have enough credibility to actually be taken seriously when I say I'm creating my own coin.

So that's what I did.

And it worked.

And then all of a sudden we go, well, look, what we have the ability to do here is finish the work that I started with this community currency thing all those years ago back when I was doing with gold and silver.

This is a powerful tool for small towns that are going broke.

So think of it like this, right?

If you take a twenty dollar bill to downtown and you spend it, the merchant gets twenty bucks.

But if you take a credit card downtown and you tap to pay, they don't get twenty dollars.

They get like ninety seven percent of it and they tap to pay next door and next door and next door.

After twenty taps, that money is half gone.

It's half gone.

Where did it go?

Well, the bank skimmed three percent right off the top.

It didn't feel like a lot transaction one at a time, but it adds up.

And so I'm like, we can fix this.

Crypto gives us this powerful tool now to be able to exchange value with each other quickly, easily, inexpensively.

Like, let's go.

That's what Bitcoin started as.

Peer to peer cash.

That's all.

So we can do it now.

So I'm like, I'm doing something really good.

I'm going to get rich off of crypto, but we're going to help small towns across Texas.

Win-win.

And then Texas was like, yeah, unregistered security, shut it down.

Oh, and you're a fraud.

And I'm like, well, that's, look, I can live with the unregistered security argument because all the cryptos, when they start to get big, they all go through it.

It's okay.

But the fraud thing was kind of painful.

So what's our fraud claim?

It's a long list.

I'll give you a couple of things.

It's not that long.

Number one, I intentionally failed to disclose that I went bankrupt in twenty thirteen.

This was number one.

And it's like, well, hold on.

Did you talk about it?

Like we have two calls a week.

I've been talking about it for years.

I mean, you did break it up on this call, too.

So, oh, it's part of my story.

It's part of my credibility.

It's like, well, why do you think that you can be successful?

You're going well.

I messed up so bad in twenty thirteen that I bought a one way ticket to Asia where I watched crypto really kind of like unfold and like become a big thing.

And so it was always part of my story.

So I'm like, why?

It's one thing that I didn't disclose it, which is not true.

But why would they say that I intentionally hid it?

Like, that's so easy to disprove.

And it was like four or five more things like that.

Right.

And, uh, and I'm looking at this, I'm like, this is so dumb because not only is it not true, but I can't imagine what evidence they have.

So somehow our attorneys, we hired Quinn Emanuel, like very expensive attorneys that know this stuff.

Ripple.

CZ, Richard Hart.

Yeah.

All of them.

They do the big ones and they charge top dollar.

I know it.

You can see the charges on my website.

So, so yeah, I put it all out there.

We're the gold standard for transparency.

I'm so glad I haven't been sued or anything yet, but yeah.

Give it time.

Just be patient.

Celsius tried to sue me.

No.

Because I was leaking the information.

They spent seventy thousand dollars of customer funds trying to sue me.

Your money.

And they're spending my money to try to sue me.

Anyway, continue.

Somehow our attorneys convinced the judge in this case to do a live stream of the four day conference.

Maddie sat there and watched the whole entire thing in person.

I'm the first to go.

I didn't have to be there.

I didn't have to testify.

I wasn't subpoenaed.

Nothing.

The prosecution calls me as their first witness.

I'm like, that's really kind of weird because.

I don't know what they think they're going to get out of me that I haven't already said in a hundred plus weeks of live recorded calls that are transcribed, saved through our website, published to YouTube, the whole thing.

So they put me on there and we go through and it was nothing.

And then they put on their chief investigator who admits that they lied about all of the fraud claims, every single one of them.

We're like, you knew that that was not true, but it went into this thing anyway.

We just sent a letter to Abbott.

It's on the website.

Like going through this thing.

Yeah, the governor of Texas.

And we're like, why would you do that?

And then have your chief... investigator admit that you guys knew that it was a lie like it's really weird it's like kind of frivolous and that's a specific thing so by the end of the second person on the stand the case was over it was like we knew that we weren't a fraud the security thing like let the lawyers figure that out right okay but we knew we were never a fraud.

And by the end of the second witness on the stand, we're like, ah, we got everything we need, case over.

And at the end of my testimony, I said, you know, what's weird about this whole thing is that I get on stages all over the world.

I'm in Hong Kong, I'm in Singapore, I'm in Toronto.

I'm telling the world about how great Texas is.

Texas is the place where you guys wanna be to start your crypto entrepreneur business, right?

Real great regulatory environment, wide open spaces, you know, no taxes.

Come set up shop in Texas.

And then you guys are going to lie about me.

It doesn't really set like a good tone for this whole thing.

Like you can jump up out of your chair right now and say, judge, don't throw our case away because we got some of the facts wrong.

Let's remove this fraud allegation.

Well, we just talked the other night on our call that the reason they had that in there is because you can't get an emergency cease and desist without fraud.

You have to have fraud to get an emergency cease and desist.

Otherwise, they just have to file a lawsuit.

So they made up all these things which they knew weren't true and they ran with them.

And then they had the evidence they they admitted.

And now they're backing away from this.

And it's like, guys, just drop the case.

Just do the right thing.

Anyway, I believe that I'm more effective for the future of our project by staying away from the state of Texas.

It's not criminal.

There's nobody arrested, no doors kicked in, no lawsuits filed.

It's just a cease and desist.

But I'm not gonna let them get away with it.

We've gone way out of our way to be honest and upfront with people.

We have to hold the government to those same standards.

And if they're not willing to do it, then we're gonna call them out and we're gonna drag them through the mud and we're gonna make a big mess online about it.

And we're going to hope that the noise gets somebody's attention that's able to step in and do the right thing.

I don't mind this security question.

I'll deal with that.

But the fraud allegation was really unfair and it felt like twenty thirteen all over.

And now I'm looking at it and saying, why do I even want to go back?

Like, I love my home.

I love my family, my community, you know, my state.

But, like, they lied.

And that's a painful thing.

So I'm on the run.

Wow, that's really sad.

I was in Hong Kong when it went down.

And I was like, guess I'm not going back to Texas anytime soon.

Oh, that's really sad.

Sad.

So are you actually fully uprooting from Texas and leaving?

Totally.

I was living on a boat in Singapore for like four or five months while I was just waiting for the case.

We were supposed to have a ten day hearing.

So this was February.

Ten days.

OK, March, we get an answer.

No, no, no, no, no.

This is a process that's going to go on for years.

It's a process that's going to last for a long time.

The government has unlimited time and unlimited money.

And we're trying to save the world with, you know, whatever is left over of our budget.

Wow.

So but we got to do our part.

We got to take little things on the chin, whether it's an exchange going bust or a cold card hack or whatever.

Like we got to keep going because this is the future of money.

And we're either going to figure it out for ourselves or we're going to hand it over to the government and the banks.

Which one's the right way to go?

So that's the story of why I'm on that.

Wow, that is a crazy story.

And that's such a shame that you seem to have loved Texas so much.

And now you're on the run now.

Well, here's the deal.

If we come out of this thing victorious, I might throw my hat in the ring for governor.

Oh, here's the thing.

Transparency is an easy thing to do.

It's like just tell the truth and put it all in the chain.

Right.

We've got the tools now.

IPFS, public file sharing, like just put it all out there.

You know, be honest and upfront with people.

And that resonates.

People can still tell the difference today between something that's real and complete bullshit.

And and if we don't feed that, then it's going to go away and no one's going to care anymore.

Our second episode was with an independent news reporter, Next News Network.

And he's like, no, no, no.

Young people can definitely tell the difference between real stuff and AI stuff.

I'm like, are you sure they can tell the difference or did they just not care anymore?

Right.

What do you think?

Sometimes I can't even tell the difference.

I mean, things are getting really close.

So I sometimes have to question even.

Obviously, I think older people can tell even less.

No, they have no idea.

Chase Bank is on the phone right now and they need your password or else my account is going to get closed.

I'm like, Dad, hang up.

Stop it.

How many times do I have to tell you?

I mean, imagine him getting a phone call from me.

Hey, Dad, I need the password to the account.

Like, what's he going to do?

He's just going to give it over.

So I hope I hope that people that are tuned into this episode still care.

And it's tough with the memes and the NFTs and the noise and the perps and the defies and the blah.

It's so easy to get lost in all of it.

I want them to know I want the people that are tuned in right now to know that that crypto is a very powerful financial technology.

And it does give us what you may not even know yet that you're looking for, which is honest money.

It's the idea that your future is not going to get inflated away from underneath you without you even knowing about it.

And that that thing is real.

It's in crypto.

You got to cut through the noise.

You got to cut through the drama.

You got to cut through the bad actors and find it.

But it's out there.

So don't give up on it.

Stay stay connected.

Find good people, good information, because it matters, because it might just it might just be the thing that we need to save the world.

My two cents.

I'm there with you.

I feel like I'm not very evangelical about anything.

I don't really tell people what to buy typically on my page, but I do.

I have been a longtime holder of Bitcoin because one of my family members got into Bitcoin back in like, twenty twelve or something like that.

He was the one who first told me about Bitcoin.

He gave me a little Bitcoin back in around twenty twelve.

I had no idea what it was.

And obviously, I'm very glad that I I was glad that I held on to it.

I think that those first bitcoins are what went into Celsius.

So I mean, I was a bad mistake.

No more of that.

No more.

All right.

But Bobby is right.

Ready?

Don't do this yet.

Just listen to me.

But in a moment, don't do this yet.

Just listen to me.

But in a moment, I'm going to ask you to take your hands.

I'm going to ask you to put them up like this and then I'm going to ask you to clap your hands together like this.

Don't do it yet.

Just listen to me.

I'm going to ask you to clap your hands together like this.

And then I want you to spread your two index fingers apart just like this.

OK, I want you to stare intently at the space between those two fingers.

And I want you to imagine with all of your imagination, the same imagination you had as a child, that you've got two very powerful magnets sitting on your fingertips.

What do magnets do?

Attract.

They attract.

I want you to imagine these strong, powerful magnets pulling your fingers closer and closer together until they touch.

Start with the idea of wanting it to happen and watch how easy it is.

Go ahead.

Put your hands up.

Clap your hands together like this.

Spread your two index fingers apart.

Bring them about six inches in front of your face and stare at the space between those two fingers.

Imagine those two magnets pulling your fingers closer and closer together until they touch.

And just like that, the power of suggestion got your two fingers to race right together and touch.

And that's...

The beginning of wanting it to happen with hypnosis.

Really?

That was, yeah, it did.

Wow.

It's a trick.

Look, look, look, it's a trick.

It's a trick, right?

If I tell you that you put your fingers like this, they're naturally going to go together. you can hold your fingers apart but if you stop resisting your fingers go together and they touch but if i tell you you've got two very powerful magnets that are pulling them together and oh my god through the internet from thousands of kilometers away the magician the mind magician wow you're a slick bastard you want to try one more sure let's do it are we going deeper Let's do it.

Sure.

You sure?

You ready?

All right.

Don't do this if you're driving.

If you're driving, you're ignoring everything that I say.

Don't do this yet.

Just listen to me.

And if you're driving, operating any kind of heavy machinery, completely tune out because this is not for you.

But in a moment, Tiffany.

I'm gonna ask you to close your eyelids down like this.

Nod your head if you understand.

I'm gonna ask you to close your eyelids down.

I'm gonna ask you to squeeze them down tightly shut like this.

Nod your head if you understand.

I'm gonna ask you to imagine as if you've got thick, fast drying glue forming around the bottoms of those eyelids.

I want you to imagine that whatever you do will not cause your eyelids to work.

In fact, your eyelids will be completely unable to work nod your head if you understand in fact they won't work until you tap yourself on the forehead like this watch tap and your eyelids will continue to work okay Okay, was I supposed to not be doing it?

Okay, okay.

You were supposed to be watching me.

Okay, okay, okay.

So start with the idea of wanting it to happen.

Remember, you could resist, but why bother?

And so now when you're ready, go ahead and close your eyelids down.

And I want you to imagine that thick, fast-drying glue is forming around the bottoms of your eyelids.

Five, start with the idea of wanting it to happen.

Nod your head if you understand.

Four, remember to breathe cool air in...

And out of your lungs, exhale slowly.

Good.

Three, imagine that thick, fast drying glue is sealing those eyelids down.

In fact, they just couldn't work if you wanted them to.

Two, nodding your head if you understand.

And one, when you're ready and you're sure that those eyelids are so relaxed that they won't work, go ahead and give them a test and notice that they just won't work.

Try them harder.

Notice the harder you try, the more impossible it is for them to work.

Try your eyelids harder.

Show me what it looks like when you try.

Try them harder and go ahead.

There you go.

And tap your head when you're ready for them to work again.

Tap.

There you go.

How fun is that?

That's interesting.

I could take a room full of three hundred people, do that and get about two hundred ninety of them.

Same thing.

It's a trick.

If I tell you to close your eyes and imagine they don't work, this is what it looks like.

OK, now if I tell you to stop imagining, they start working again.

Here's the fun part.

You're right now in this post-hypnotic state.

So if you close your eyelids down again, go ahead and close them down and seal them shut.

And now you're right back to where you are.

So what happens is you start with that idea of trying it out.

And then while you're there trying to figure out what's going on with your eyes, I start giving you suggestions.

The next thing you know, you're like, oh, God, where am I?

So it's pretty fun stuff.

This is cool.

I kind of want you to do more of these sometime on me.

Some other time for sure.

Because I think of myself as like a skeptic.

So it's interesting when these things work on me.

I'm like, whoa.

It's conditioning, right?

You start with these little things and you go, okay, that worked.

Let's try this thing.

Oh, okay, that worked.

Next thing you know, you're barking like a dog and cracking like a dog.

Which could have happened on this episode of Honest Money Live, but it didn't.

Maddie, we're out of time.

I know we're about out of time, but I feel like it would be disappointing if I didn't ask Tiffany the one question that will close the loop on the hook at the beginning.

So here we go.

Sure.

Ask anything.

Tiffany, the Wall Street Journal reported that Elon Musk asked whether you'd have a child with him.

You've never met.

What's your side of that story?

All I've said about this is that I did not feed this to the Wall Street Journal.

And my only comment on this has been I'm not going to comment on it.

But all respect, no animosity towards Elon.

I think the guy is incredibly smart and the innovator of our time.

So not trying to shit on him or anything like that.

Did not want him to, did not tell the Wall Street Journal that.

I, in fact, told them not to include me in that story.

So anyway, yeah. perfect hey yeah shout out elon i think for the record i would not have his baby either you would not if you were a woman would you have his baby if i was a woman if you were a woman no the richest man in the world yeah what what is your take on this matter i've obviously had this discussion with uh god am i really supposed to answer there's a lot of people watching right now i know hey you guys asked me I don't know if I want to answer because my answer is not very nice.

I am an Elon skeptic.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

Well, let me put it to you like this.

I'll tell you two things.

Number one is if the government says that it's true, I'm team opposite.

I'm sure that they're lying, right?

Like what's really happening in the world?

Whatever the government said, it's the opposite.

That's where I start.

Okay.

And then number two is I don't think we went to the moon.

You don't?

Okay.

So you're a bit of a conspiracy theorist.

I mean, I just, I think about it and I'm like, there's a lot of evidence that proves we didn't go.

And the only thing that we have that says we did go is like the government.

Go back to point number one.

So you think that the pictures are fake?

I think the whole thing is fake.

I don't know what the end game goal is, but doesn't like leading scientists.

We lost the technology to go there.

So what about these like live, like, you know, SpaceX is doing live feeds of their like rocket launches.

Do you think that they're all fake?

I don't know.

Like I'm not ever going to be in a position to have enough information to make an informed, you know, opinion on it.

Okay.

But in my heart of hearts, I have a real hard time believing the moon story.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And so – you know, I've delved that deep into this and have a strong opinion on it.

I just kind of, I didn't, I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist in general.

So I feel like I'm not probably as skeptical on these things as you, but yeah, it's tough.

I mean, you have to, you have to like go really far back to understand the foundation of like this distrust of, of government thing.

And I wouldn't pick any one like conspiracy Hill to die on.

I would just say that it doesn't, it doesn't feel right because, And when you think about all the other things that we've been lied to about, that's the easiest one to be skeptical of.

And so, look, you start there and you say, I don't know, I've heard some really good expert opinions saying that we probably didn't go.

And then you got this guy that is maybe the smartest person of our time, the entrepreneur of the age, and he thinks we did go.

And he's banking on us not only being able to go there, but way, way, way beyond it.

And I'm like, I don't know.

I don't know.

So it makes you distrustful of him.

It doesn't make you think maybe this story is true.

It just makes you distrust him.

I have a really bad habit of what I call conflict and congruency.

And this is another NLP thing.

And I look for that in character and in people.

And as soon as you say something that really doesn't fit well with my frame of everything, I just shut down.

I go, oh, never mind, never mind.

So I'll be tuning in to somebody that I really admire and appreciate, and I turn it off.

I'm like, I'm just going to turn this off before they say something so stupid.

Interesting.

That I have to completely shrug off every other intelligent thing that they've said.

Hmm.

And it's not a good habit, because there are a lot of great things to get all over the place, from one side of the aisle to the other.

I mean, I've learned so much from so many different things.

And I wouldn't say that it's getting worse as I get older, but I am becoming a little bit more closely tuned in to who's lying to me, and what do they get out of it?

Why would Elon lie about that?

That doesn't make any sense.

And if anybody would know, it would be him, right?

So what's the upside?

Why bother?

It doesn't make any sense.

So I get stuck there.

And, you know, again, it's like if I if I really wanted to come to a conclusion, I'd have to dig in and I'd have to study it.

And I'm just not there.

I'm just bigger fish to fry. yeah i guess interesting huh i guess i'm not operating under the assumption that he's lying so i don't know i guess we're yeah different but it's tough interesting that seems like a big over generalization though to not to find fault with one thing someone says and then write off everything it's totally it's totally bad it's totally it's it's a it's a character flaw for sure It's on me.

I have to say, I would have a kid with Elon, but I lucked out even more and I had a kid with my wife.

That's so cute.

I'm really happy on that path.

He's living the life.

Do you have any kids, Bobby?

I've got two so far as I know.

My son is twenty two ish.

My daughter's twenty one ish.

Oh, that's nice.

Yeah.

So I'm like an empty nester now.

So I got a little bit of time to save the world and travel and see the world and all that stuff.

Yeah.

Well, it's my dream.

It's my goal.

You guys both have had children.

I hope to have one one day.

Someday, someday, but do it because the world needs more children.

Yes.

Elon would be the first to sit us down and explain how important it is that we procreate and deal with this population.

I agree.

Hey, thank you so much for allowing us to. join you today and share our stories.

I'm so glad we went into it knowing nothing about each other.

And I think it went pretty well.

And I would very much look forward to chatting with you again.

Me too.

I think this was great.

This was very fun.

Thank you for having me.

Down to do it again sometime.

Love it.

Maddie, how do we wrap up?

Is there a script agenda?

I don't know, but here's what I'll say.

I can share this out.

Tiffany is going to hit a million followers on X in the next few days.

So go ahead and help her out there.

So Texit, Coin, X, and other places.

Honest Money Live is a regular recurring show.

And so check us out again in the future at honest.money.

And until next time, take care.

Thanks, guys.

Thanks, David.

Thank you.

That was fun.